(The) borrowing requirement is rising already. Just got a new report from the Treasury. It says in January of this year the amount of money coming in to the treasury in taxes plunged 15%, at the same time,money going out of the treasury,surged at a breakneck pace. What it means is, our government's need to borrow money is rising rapidly and when we sign the stimulus plan tommorrow (Tue 2/17)..it means that the deficit, the borrowing requirement, will almost double to two trillion dollars. The government is trying to borrow this massive amount of money (and that) crowds out other people trying to borrow to buy a car for example or to buy a house. So there's competition for the money...(and) the interest on it goes up. The result; interest rates rise. We're already seeing that. The 30 year percentage rate has already gone up 1/2 a percentage point just in the last 3 weeks because the government is borrowing so much money. $67 billion last week alone; $2 trillion this year. We're borowing 15% of our (GNP) this year.Most other societies are borrowing 8-9%, we've really gone overboard". /// As I said, with no money available at affordable rates, we will see stunted economic growth and incredible inflation: Stagfltion.

You are right on point Meemoon, and the worst is yet to come for all of us.

SSC wrote:You are right on point Meemoon, and the worst is yet to come for all of us.

I was going to add "we are in for a hard time", but you beat me to it. Gypsy also posted a summary in print that says the exact same thing. I dunno. Believe it or not,I will benefit. My house is paid for. A COLA increase of just 10% will get me $180 more per month. and I don't have a job to worry about. Now that I see my wild guesses are being confirmed,I'm starting to worry. As unfair as it would be, the gov. must legislate equity reduction for motgage holders, or we could see $4 trillion in mortgage defaults. That won't come free for the banks. Some will close unless even MORE bail-out funds are offered. There's no end to this. The snowball is in motion. As you pointed out,Obama's cabinet apps. are disappointing,to say the least. He's dropped the "Auto industry Czar" notion and is now touting an "Action panel" or some such crap. I had a 6% new car loan on my HHR, but took an 8% loan to buy this MX-5 because I WANTED it and they had to add a few grand to pay off the HHR. Now I will see people buying the same car,getting full trade in value-plus, and paying $200/mo less. I will feel little resentment,but what about the poor slob and his wife who have worked their ass off to keep their home mortgage in shape? How will he feel knowing his hard earened tax dollars will allow slackers and fools to live in the same house at 1/2 the cost? When the banks start failing,and some certainly will, the Feds will cover up to $250K per depositor. Another huge debt burden. When prime rate hits 10%+, that will start the severe reactions. There simply won't be any money available anywhere. Bankruptcies will multiply four-fold,etc. I don't think we'll hit bottom as hard as in '29, but crawling outta this will take time. "Have a nice day" my ass.

what other solution to you propose? something had to be done.. is there another avenue?

Moon one thing I disagree,with.. I think the person at the helm has to carry some of the load..,as you stated if this doesn't work Obama will be blamed,there are two side to a coin..I am not bashing Bush but he was at the helm,and had to see this coming, Heck we did,` the people..

There were three avenues of attack: This plan, The "Keynesian" approach, and the "bitter pill". This plan: Borrow as much as you can and hope for the best. Keynesian: Devalue the dollar and immediately rationalize the true value of the dollar. Our assets in the RE market have rendered the dollar significantly less valuable. Foreign banks who have American dollars on deposit will suddenly,over night,be robbed of huge sums. Those who are our most active trading partners will be more likely to fail. Their Marks,Kronas,Lira will be suddenly more valuable. The I-ties will suddenly want to "buy American". Their governments don't want to wind up like us and will impose severe trade tarrifs. World trade will freeze and economic chaos will ensue. The bitter pill: Don't do anything.(too late for that,anyway) Accept 20+% unemployment here at home. The dollars value stays the same because we didn't print any more. Over time, the natural growth in population and concommitant increase in demand and the usual and gradual increases in productivity rebuild the ecoonmy. BUT, the breadlines and millions on relief are politically unacceptable. I am not an economist and have no idea which plan is best for US. I heard some smart people say we should have suspended all revenue collection and have the gov. pay all bills with Treasury notes for one year. Kinda wild, but I liked it. Limited credit backed expenditure would demand efficiency in funding and,hopefully, limit debt to about one year's (or less) revenue. The politicians HATE the idea because it would severely curtail their ability to buy votes with real money. Obviously,they would rather use monopoly money. PS to Gypsy: You goddamn right Bush dropped the ball and he had a lotta help. The Dems FORCED Fannimae and Freddiemac to throw the money away on bad loans and the Congress failed to insist on competent and effective regulation. Everybody,including the American people,was riding around in $40,00 SUVs and paying $6 a gallon for bottled water. Remember Alfred E, Neuman? "What, me care?"

my understanding the republicans/Bush took off the regulations,A big mistake the democrats didn't even get voted into the house/senate till 2006 republicans were in control at that time.

how did Democrats, force Fannie mae and freddie mac?? to do what?n they have only been in control what 2 years . I agree on partly the blame,is the big banks/lenders and Businesses, but our leaders should have been on top of the game, of course it does no good to point fingers now,the fly is already in the pudding ~~ I hope this plan works, i feel the new prez and cabinet has to try,being lax for years didn't help..

Barney Frank is head of the House Financial Services Commitee and Christopher Dodd is chairman of the Senate Banking Commitee. They are both liberal Democrats and they have both held their chairs for a helluva lot longer that 2 years. They rewrote the rules by which Fanniemae and Freddiemac operate and forced them to approve loans to people who would have been unqualified under the old rules. We can thank these two for starting the whole mess. Any more questions? Wanna hear how Dodd made miillions through his interests in one of the banks with which Fannie and Freddie did business? Wanna hear how Barney, an avowed homosexual, had a live in male lover who was a regulator at Fanniemae? Of course you don't. All you ever want to hear is made-up crap about Bush.

Too funny!!

when they wrote these new rules, Barney/Dodd~ didn't it have to go to the president,for approval or house? as far as I am concerned there have been many sexual crimes and crap from both sides..all kinds of unethical behavior.

I don't think just two men brought this crisis to a head, ( but hey I may be wrong)it took a whole slew of them..but yes I would like to read this proof of two men forcing banks,and this~ downfall..
I am debating with respect, and I will continue too, I hope that goes for both of us~

"when they wrote these new rules, Barney/Dodd~ didn't it have to go to the president,for approval or house?" /// NO! Respect? You,who seems to know NOTHING AT ALL about how our government works, request "respect"? Respect for what" Unbridled ignorance? /// "my understanding the republicans/Bush took off the regulations,A big mistake the democrats didn't even get voted into the house/senate till 2006 republicans were in control at that time." /// WHAT understanding? You don't understand a goddamn thing.

yes I understand.. I just see things different than you do.. just because i don't agree with you doesn't mean i can't debate my views respectfully,

you ask me if i wanted see, or read about Dodd and Frank and their fault in the down fall of the economy~ yes please~

"you ask me if i wanted see, or read about Dodd and Frank and their fault in the down fall of the economy~ yes please~" /// Fine, look it up at factcheck.org---and don't denounce it as a "Repug" site, it's generally liberal in outlook.

"It's true that key Democrats opposed the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, which would have established a single, independent regulatory body with jurisdiction over Fannie and Freddie – a move that the Government Accountability Office had recommended in a 2004 report. Current House Banking Committee chairman Rep. Barney Frank of Massachusetts opposed legislation to reorganize oversight in 2000 (when Clinton was still president), 2003 and 2004, saying of the 2000 legislation that concern about Fannie and Freddie was "overblown." Just last summer, Senate Banking Committee chairman Chris Dodd called a Bush proposal for an independent agency to regulate the two entities "ill-advised."

I couldn't find anything except, Barney is gay LOL.

500thousand different topics!!

n September 2003, Frank, then the ranking Democrat on the Republican-led Financial Services Committee, opposed a Bush administration proposal for transferring oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from Congress and the Department of Housing and Urban Development to a new agency that would be created within the Treasury Department. The proposal reflected the administration's belief that Congress "neither has the tools, nor the stature" for adequate oversight. Frank stated, "These two entities...are not facing any kind of financial crisis.... The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing."[42]

Conservative groups have criticized Frank for campaign contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac ($42,350 between 1989 and 2008). They further claim the donations influenced his support of their lending programs, and they have partially blamed Frank for not playing a stronger role in reforming Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in the years leading up to the Economic crisis of 2008.[43][44] In addition, Frank's former partner, Herb Moses, was an executive at Fannie from 1991 to 1998, where Moses helped develop many of Fannie’s affordable housing and home improvement lending programs. In 1991, Frank pushed for reduced restrictions on two- and three-family home mortgages.[45] Frank and Moses' relationship ended around the same time Moses left the company; Frank's support of Fannie and Freddie predated and continued past that relationship.[46]

Frank has responded that he "opposed right-wing efforts to put Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac out of business, while simultaneously supporting strong regulation" and "voted against the [2005 reform] bill in protest of those restrictions, while making it clear that I was for the reforms it otherwise contained."[47] Lawrence B. Lindsey, former chief economic adviser to then-President Bush, states that Frank "is the only politician I know who has argued that we needed tighter rules that intentionally produce fewer homeowners and more renters."[48

Yeah, I figured as much. Read the post above you. You are a total waste of time. And a "hundred thousand articles" is just another goddamn lie. Stay stupid.

ok it still isn't feasible that two men alone caused this, why aren't they being investigated?
prosecuted? still does not show blame, just stupid decisions~
Oh well we are in this mess together, i think it will be a long time before we see a better economy,I just hope this administration can get the ball rolling~

2 trillion and growing is a pretty big ball to bounce for years to come

plus the remnants of war cost, and many other things~

meemoon wrote:Yeah, I figured as much. Read the post above you. You are a total waste of time. And a "hundred thousand articles" is just another goddamn lie. Stay stupid.

I beg your pardon sir, just because i don't agree with you, or see the proof of your charges, does not mean i am stupid~ not the brightest bulb but not stupid~LOL
name calling is stupid though..I suggest you copy/ paste the article you directed me to from factcheck.org~~ thank you~

and wasted money in the last 3 weeks adding to the ever growing balance

gypsy wrote:ok it still isn't feasible that two men alone caused this, why aren't they being investigated?
prosecuted? still does not show blame, just stupid decisions~
Oh well we are in this mess together, i think it will be a long time before we see a better economy,I just hope this administration can get the ball rolling~

you don't prosecute house members or senators on committees for pushing an agenda, i did see a film of barney frank pushing loans easier for poor ppl to acquire them .. i will admit, i think unless someone can prove me wrong, most economist approved needing a stimulus, what kind i dont know, but some economist said this one was way to small to help pull us up. i dont think anyone knows what will happen, sometimes i wonder if the wall to wall news, on cable, scares ppl , and hurts more than helps, just a thought no fact to back anything up, so take with a grain of salt,

well as we all know franlklin roosevelt did not end the depression , he lowered last i read unemployment from like 23 percent to 17,,he did help, but ,, world war II brought us out of the depression. so who do we attack, in order to bolster our economy, lmao, how about mexico, lol

I agree Rosco` we just have to hope it will help,..